Curse

Pantaloon · Mar 26, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

There was a thread floating around dealing with skills that shouldn't be elite, so I though, what about those skills that should be elite and are not. I will start things of here with a warrior skill, Final Thrust.

I bet a lot of people will disagree with me on this one, because a lot of people play sword warriors and want them to be as powerful as they can, but look at the warriors elite attack skills, and you will see that Final Thrust is just as good or betters them. Because of this your are able to reserve the elite slot for a skill such as Battle Rage, Flourish, Hundred Blades, or other elite skills. If it was made elite, it might then cost 8 or 9 adrenaline instead of 10. Remember this is a thread about skills that should be elite, so don't talk about how other warrior elite should be more powerful.

FireMarshal · Mar 26, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

If it were to be elite, it would have to lose the "Lose all adrenaline" mod before I'd ever use it.

The rest are fine IMO, if any were to be made Elite, it would need some boosts first...

Ensign · Mar 26, 2005, 10:21 PM // 22:21

I rarely touch Final Thrust now. If it was elite it'd just be another junky elite that wouldn't see play. It's mediocre, why elite it?

What needs to be elite? Nothing, really. If I could elite anything it'd be Ether Lord - not because it's overpowered, but because it's an effect that pretty much has to be elite to be pumped to playable power levels.

Peace,
-CxE

Kadeton · Mar 26, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Isn't the point of the Elite tag on skills to break up sets of skills that would be overpowered in combination? My impression was that Elite skills are not any better than normal skills, or at most only situationally better, until put into combination with another Elite, at which point the stacking of effects (or damage, or what-have-you) becomes greater than the sum of its parts.

Assuming that's the underlying theory of the Elite system, where's the deadly combo with Final Thrust? Which Elite would you combine it with to create overpowering synergy? It seems difficult to combo Final Thrust with anything, especially since it nukes all your adrenaline.

Ensign · Mar 27, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadeton

Isn't the point of the Elite tag on skills to break up sets of skills that would be overpowered in combination?

No, the point of the elite tag is to slap it onto overly powerful skills so that they won't become ubiquitous. The 'overpowered combo' that they're breaking up is broken spam skill + broken energy management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadeton

My impression was that Elite skills are not any better than normal skills

Your impression is simply wrong. For blatant examples, compare Energy Drain to Energy Tap, or Glyph of Energy to Glyph of Lesser Energy. For less blatant examples, check out any elite skill used on competitive builds. Odds are it'll be the most powerful skill on the skill bar.

Elites are cornerstone, abusive skills. If your elite doesn't feel abusive you're doing something wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadeton

Assuming that's the underlying theory of the Elite system, where's the deadly combo with Final Thrust?

What's the deadly combo with Word of Healing? Barrage? Water Trident? Simply put, there isn't one. They're just overpowered skills that are slapped with the elite tag to keep them from becoming ubiquitous. Once again, the abuse is overpowered spam skill + overpowered energy management. As such you have your choice of abusive spam or abusive energy, but not both.

Peace,
-CxE

Tiberius · Mar 27, 2005, 12:14 AM // 00:14

In some cases yes, in others no. Take Energy Burn and Energy Surge for example.

EDIT: Whoops, beat me to it

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WNxTyphoon · Mar 27, 2005, 12:19 AM // 00:19

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u·biq·ui·tous Pronunciation Key (y-bkw-ts) adj.

Being or seeming to be everywhere at the same time; omnipresent: “plodded through the shadows fruitlessly like an ubiquitous spook” (Joseph Heller).

Now everyone thank dictionary.com

Nudge · Mar 27, 2005, 12:50 AM // 00:50

I see both your points, there have been occasions that people have found solo farming techniques with skills, and they have made the two skills elite to avoid issues. But they have also have upped the power of those skills. But there are flaws in both of your thinkings. if it were to get rid of combos, then why would adrenaline skills stack in a neat little row, with many being 7 or 8 adrenaline. Those are simply a matter of time before you have multiple heavy-hitting skills. also, if it were to simply up the power of a skill and make it a cornerstone, why isn't flare an elite? I feel like it's power is one-upped compared to skills from other skill lines like it: no cooldown, 5 mana, low cast time, 40 damage. 5 mana can be made up so quickly, a lousy E could become mediocre just simply by spamming such a spell. Such a thing cannot be achieved by stone daggers, ice spikes, lightning javelin, or even water trident (which has a longer cooldown than flare)

Scaphism · Mar 27, 2005, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nudge

why isn't flare an elite? I feel like it's power is one-upped compared to skills from other skill lines like it: no cooldown, 5 mana, low cast time, 40 damage.

Are you really suggesting that flare should be made an elite skill?

The fact that people even consider Flare to be a cornerstone of the fire elementalist line should be evidence of how horribly undereducated most people are about how the skill system works.

For those who don't know, you are spending 5 energy to do what any warrior or ranger does for no energy on a regular basis. Check out this table on skill effectiveness. Make sure not to overlook the energy duty on every skill, since if you think flare is a great skill, you must be playing with an infinite energy pool. Some values on the table are out of date, like Warrior's Cunning no longer provides armor penetration, but ignore those.

Hope this helps, and I hope all my enemies in the future decide to use flare against me.

StandardAI · Mar 27, 2005, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Lol... Flare does what against a warrior? 10 damage? If they made flare elite they would have to make healing orison elite, or mind wrack.

Pantaloon · Mar 27, 2005, 01:34 AM // 01:34

You guys comment on how Final Thrust makes you lose all adrenaline, but you would use your other adrenaline skills and then finish up with a final thrust, then its not like you lost much, maybe a couple of adrenaline. Since you used other attack skills first, if done in quick succession, it is likely that your target may be below 50% health making your final thrust do massive damage.

Nudge · Mar 27, 2005, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantaloon

You guys comment on how Final Thrust makes you lose all adrenaline, but you would use your other adrenaline skills and then finish up with a final thrust, then its not like you lost much, maybe a couple of adrenaline. Since you used other attack skills first, if done in quick succession, it is likely that your target may be below 50% health making your final thrust do massive damage.

Indeed. that's why it's called "final thrust"... it's final, and made for when the enemy is below half health.

And what I'm simply stating with flare is that it's more effective than all the other skills like it in the other skill lines, except it regens faster and costs less. Any elementalist with the proper energy pool who is waiting for his other skills to recharge would use flare, and use it a lot. What you don't notice is that flare does labeled damage at level 20 to many other casters, and it does so from a distance. If it's more effective than all the others like it, why shouldn't it be an elite?

ThePaper · Mar 27, 2005, 03:15 AM // 03:15

OK you all seem to be arguing about final thrust now, so here is a skill that should be elite: Troll Ungent

I use it on my warrior, and it has saved me SO MANY times that the one time I took it off I died in 3 seconds. I actually put my stats into wild survival (I'm a WarRan just for that skill, and It has payed off a LOT. For those who don't know, troll ungent adds 4...6 (i think, somewhere around there) pips of HP (1 pip is 3 hp a sec I think?) Regen. Also note that I never got my char past lvl 11ish, since beta ended, so I'm not sure if it gets crappy (or mediocre) in time.

And now begins the arguing...

Darc.Syde · Mar 27, 2005, 03:20 AM // 03:20

no, 3 second cast time, and degeneration can counter it. it also heals slow, so it's possible to out damage the regeneration.

mostro · Mar 27, 2005, 03:24 AM // 03:24

I thought that the game would be better off without the elite mechanic altogether. So why are we promoting more elite skills?

Ensign · Mar 27, 2005, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nudge

Any elementalist with the proper energy pool who is waiting for his other skills to recharge would use flare, and use it a lot.

Any Elementalist waiting for his other skills to recharge would attack with his wand rather than cast this waste of energy. If this is a frequent event, an Elementalist will cast Conjure Element on his wand before attacking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nudge

What you don't notice is that flare does labeled damage at level 20 to many other casters, and it does so from a distance.

You're right, I completely missed that from reading the skill description.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nudge

If it's more effective than all the others like it, why shouldn't it be an elite?

It shouldn't be an elite because skills that are steaming piles of excrement are not made elite.

It's more effective than what? Stone Daggers? Nope, Stone Daggers is better. Ice Spear? Debatable, Ice Spear does more damage at a shorter range. Lightning Strike? Strike at least autohits and does appreciably more damage than any of these.

More effective than Conjure + wand? Not even close.

What, exactly, is Flare more effective than? Standing there doing nothing?

Peace,
-CxE

Pantaloon · Mar 27, 2005, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Ensign, I don't think you give flare enough credit. In around 4.5 seconds you could cast 3 flares at a cost of 15 ene and damage of 120+, and continue doing it since it has no recharge. I don't see what is so horrible about that, but I would have to agree that it is not elite worthy.

Troll Unguent is a nice spell, but because of its 3 second casting time, it is definitely not elite worthy. If you are making a Warrior Ranger just to use it, you might want you might want to have your secondary a monk and use healing breeze instead.

Darc.Syde · Mar 27, 2005, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Troll Unguent is a nice spell, but because of its 3 second casting time, it is definitely not elite worthy. If you are making a Warrior Ranger just to use it, you might want you might want to have your secondary a monk and use healing breeze instead.

actually, i would stick to troll. troll can't be interupted so easily, atleast, not as easy as breeze. troll also doesnt get your killed by shatter enchantment

Ensign · Mar 27, 2005, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantaloon

In around 4.5 seconds you could cast 3 flares at a cost of 15 ene and damage of 120+, and continue doing it since it has no recharge.

3 Flares will take 5.25 seconds, total to cast, and at level 12 will deal 117 damage.

Similarly, at level 12, Conjure Element with a Fire Wand, assuming 10% criticals, will deal 104 damage.

That's a net difference of 13 damage for your 15 energy.

Would you use a skill that cost you 5 energy, but added 4 damage to your next attack? Then why would you use Flare?

Flare is a skill for FAS babies and severe head trauma patients, not people who understand second grade math.

Peace,
-CxE

Pantaloon · Mar 27, 2005, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Are you taking into account the 1.75 time it will take to cast Conjure element, it also costs 10 energy, so you are down to a difference of 5 energy. Then you lose all enchantments. Also at level 12 fire flare does 40 damage, so the damage is 120 and not 117. I am also unclear as to if you need to take the full casting animation before the spell is cast, so it may be close to 4.5 seconds and not 5.25. If you are comparing the two skills it would be more like 5 energy for 16 damage or better (assuming you calculated everything correctly, did you forget the casting time for conjure flame, since you forgot its energy cost), with no side effect. So yes, I would use flare over Conjure Flame (or other elements). I also don't know the attack speed of wands, so I am unsure of your numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darc.Syde

actually, i would stick to troll. troll can't be interupted so easily, atleast, not as easy as breeze. troll also doesnt get your killed by shatter enchantment

Are you sure Healing Breeze would be easier to interrupt, after all, its casting time is 1 while Troll Urgent is 3. It just seems like the faster you can pull of a skill, the less chance their is of it being interrupted, and the faster you can get to healing yourself. Shatter enchantment could be a problem, but overall I would still think healing breeze is better. In a time of need that 3 second casting time could be your death.